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Muddled Thinking and The Problems It Causes
10-01-2017, 08:11 PM,
#21
RE: Muddled Thinking and The Problems It Causes
Continued from the previous post.


But has something been overlooked in all this?

What if a type exists in the context of the Old Covenant (Law Covenant) that clarifies the situation once and for all? Once and for all? Seriously – what could it be? (I do not remember ever seeing it mentioned in any Bible Student literature that I have come across. It may be there. I might have missed it or forgotten it. But it is unlikely that I would have forgotten something so profound.)

But what will it show? Which side of the argument will be seen to prevail? Who is prepared to take the risk to find out?

What is the type? What is its fulfilment (anti-type)?

And which perspective regarding the Church’s relationship to the New Covenant will it support?

Here is a hint. Look in Romans 11 for something that could be conclusive if shown to be an anti-type, then search for its matching type.

I’d love to see what StvAce and RR come up with. And anyone else who would like to join the quest.

Everyone is invited to present what they think they’ve found in this regard.



(Please don’t be reticent about expressing respectful thoughts or a respectful opinion. Or even asking for clarification of some kind. Most of us here don’t seem to growl or bite that much.)
The High Calling - First of all you Gunga Din. Afterwards you gungadout.
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10-06-2017, 07:50 AM,
#22
RE: Muddled Thinking and The Problems It Causes
I’m experiencing internet problems which may last for a further week or more.

So my detailed posting may be delayed. Other priorities exist for clear time when available.

With respect to my thoughts about (my reference to a possible anti-type in) Romans 11, it was a pointed attempt to open people’s minds to a different way of thinking and evaluation of Scripture. That is, as opposed to simply re-hashing Scripture which, while meaningful in itself, does not particularly help in nailing down solutions to long-term disagreements. Thinking outside the traditional square is required.

So, of all the thoughts and conditions expressed in Romans 11, is there something that could perhaps represent an anti-type? (An anti-type that might offer promise with respect to clarifying in some important way, questions surrounding the Church, the New Covenant, and the Church’s need of a mediator? Clarify, if a corresponding type can be found.) If so, what is it? And if we look at Israel’s history up until the death of Jesus, is there indeed a highly meaningful and conclusively explanatory type?

I am encouraging people to make the effort to look for themselves. (And learning new ways of thinking does require effort – often significant effort – effort that can engender stress and frustration in the short term because it is different from “normal”.) Once people have found the type to the anti-type (if they exist) they will have learned to use their minds in a way that will help them clear up other vexing disagreements as well.

That can only be an inarguably positive outcome.

So please put your thinking caps on, ladies and gentlemen.

What is the obvious possible anti-type? What is its related type? How does it indubitably clarify the issue under consideration?

How about making a suggestion about the possible anti-type in the first instance? Have a stab at it. Identifying that is the important first step.

Over to you/youse/y’all.
The High Calling - First of all you Gunga Din. Afterwards you gungadout.
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10-10-2017, 09:56 PM,
#23
RE: Muddled Thinking and The Problems It Causes
I suppose we should all be encouraged by the lack of response since my former post on the 6th.

It must mean that people are giving careful and unhurried consideration to the possible, all-clarifying type/anti-type situation referred to in Romans 11.

Mustn’t it?

Or does it simply mean that people who proudly wear the label Bible Student, are no more real students of the Bible than are people from normal Christendom – people who self-proclaimed Bible Students hold in low regard?

Which perspective is correct?
- Careful and unhurried consideration; or
- Laziness, or unwillingness to risk having an important personal belief shown to be wrong?

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Is there anyone willing to take on the challenge? Anyone from any background?

Would someone like to venture the initial step that might result in their showing self-labelled Bible Students up?

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Which perspective is correct?
- Careful and unhurried consideration; or
- Laziness, or unwillingness to risk having an important personal belief shown to be wrong?

Are there any real Bereans out there? (Acts 17:10,11)

Any at all?

Maybe the next few days will tell.
The High Calling - First of all you Gunga Din. Afterwards you gungadout.
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10-12-2017, 08:08 PM,
#24
RE: Muddled Thinking and The Problems It Causes
OK, let’s do this one step at a time.

The original topic pertained to how imprecise thinking has lead to conflicting doctrinal understandings and the like.

An example of that is the question of whether the Church is subject to (within, covered by) the New Covenant, or not. The inextricably associated consideration is: if yes, then Jesus must act as a mediator for every prospective Church member individually, until their inclusion in the New Covenant is sealed.

Those who say that the Church is subject to (within, covered by) the New Covenant and that Jesus performs that mediatorial act, produce Scriptures that purport to support that idea.

Those who disagree with that notion, produce Scriptures that purport to negate that idea.

The result is total deadlock, set to continue until the cows come home. Or even longer.

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It has been suggested in this thread that there is something in Romans 11 that has direct bearing on the Church-New-Covenant issue. Something that may even settle the matter once and for all if a revealing type of that something can be found associated with the Old Covenant.

So, Question 1 is: is there anything in Romans 11 that precisely pertains to people joining the church?

If so, what is it?

Is that really so hard a question?

Once that whatever-it-is is identified correctly, we can move on to Question 2.

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Will someone please either identify that something unequivocally, or shoot me, to put me out of my misery.

Thanks in advance.
The High Calling - First of all you Gunga Din. Afterwards you gungadout.
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10-13-2017, 12:32 PM,
#25
RE: Muddled Thinking and The Problems It Causes
Why don't you just spare us all the flip flap and get to your point. Many of us work for a living and have families and responsibilities, we don't have time for "guess how many fingers I'm holding up?".
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10-13-2017, 08:34 PM,
#26
RE: Muddled Thinking and The Problems It Causes
StvAce in Post 40:

Quote:In Romans 11 it is plainly evident that the Gentiles have been grafted in as 'wild olives' to the 'root', or the Abrahamic promise

Spot on. That is the starting point. After the 3½ years of exclusive proclamation of the Gospel to the Jews, those not believing were broken off the olive tree with the holy root to which they had been pre-attached, and gentiles (and Jews who ended up believing later on), were grafted into that pre-existing arrangement.

To nail the significance of that down, the second question comes into play – is there a type of which this the anti-type – is there anything within the period when the Law was operational, that corresponds to this Romans 11 situation?

If so, what is it?   (And if a type (or parallel) is identified, there will be a third and final question.)

What is that type?

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RR in Post 39:

Quote:Why don't you just spare us all the flip flap and get to your point. Many of us work for a living and have families and responsibilities, we don't have time for "guess how many fingers I'm holding up?".

Proverbs 25:2 tells us: ‘It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.’

The commentators of Christendom don’t know what to do with this revelation of truth, because they fail to ask the critical question: “Who are the kings?” Instead they interpret this to mean worldly kings studying the Bible to acquire wisdom to help them rule.

However, worldly kings are normally not given to the serious study of God’s word. So maybe it applies to other kings. Which ones?

The obvious ones are those who are tentatively assigned to, and studiously confirming their fitness to, reign with Christ.

The kings confirm their worthiness by, among other things, making the effort to find those things that God has hidden for them to find and be blessed by.

Could it be that being content with a status quo, or with the writings of a particular commentator – not being willing to make the effort (and it does require effort) to find those hidden gems of blessing – actually results in people not making the grade, and destines them to second best, the Great Company, despite their aspirations?

It is for that reason that encouragement for people to get out of their personal thinking box – encouragement to find the answers and find the wonders – has been offered in this thread.

Sometimes counting the fingers can be good.
The High Calling - First of all you Gunga Din. Afterwards you gungadout.
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10-14-2017, 05:11 PM,
#27
RE: Muddled Thinking and The Problems It Causes
StvAce has provided good information in his Post 42, for which we should thank him.

I would suggest he is very close to the mark. But I also suggest he has drifted a little from the central issue that he correctly identified previously, and back into the normal thinking patterns that we are all conditioned to let confine us. (Not that those thinking patterns are inappropriate of themselves.)

The central issue is that believers were and are grafted into a pre-existing setup.

The question is, is there any example of the same kind of thing happening during the Law period?

(Something that might indeed be a type of what StvAce identified. Something that may well clarify the significance of the anti-type, as types are wont to do.)

If so, what is it (was it)? What is that type?

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A related thought.

Sometimes, taking a perspective that is slightly different from normal, and/or asking a question that is not normally asked, opens the door to precise resolution of long-standing doctrinal issues. At other times, that change of perspective or perceptive question can move the bushes away from an entrance to a hidden pathway – a pathway that can lead to something wonderful if people are willing to follow that path into the relative unknown.

And looking back, what seemed so difficult at first, can seem all too obvious in retrospect.
The High Calling - First of all you Gunga Din. Afterwards you gungadout.
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10-15-2017, 08:55 AM,
#28
RE: Muddled Thinking and The Problems It Causes
Post 44:
Quote:Under the Law it was certainly possible for individuals from other nations to become proselytes .

Exodus 12:48
(48)  And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
(49)  One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Spot on once again!

StvAce has hit the nail on the head. Proselytes were grafted into an existing setup. (They were included in the spiritual component of the Law covenant, but remained excluded from the land component.)

We could also add:

Matthew 23:15 (MKJV):
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you compass sea and the dry [land] to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Acts 2:10 (MKJV):
Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya around Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

Acts 6:5 (MKJV):
And the saying pleased all the multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of [the] Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicholas, a proselyte of Antioch.

Acts 13:43 (MKJV):
And the synagogue being broken up, many of the Jews and of the devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas; who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

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We are now ready for the third question (which itself may lead to a couple of spin-offs).

Question 3. Who was their mediator before they were grafted in?
The High Calling - First of all you Gunga Din. Afterwards you gungadout.
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10-15-2017, 07:15 PM, (This post was last modified: 10-15-2017, 07:29 PM by gungadout.)
#29
RE: Muddled Thinking and The Problems It Causes
Post 45, speaking of Gentile proselytes who were grafted into Israel:
Quote:Question 3. Who was their mediator before they were grafted in?

Post 46:
Quote:I'd have to say that these individuals had no mediator before they were 'grafted in'. They were, in fact, in a similar state to Abraham - in uncircumcision.

Exactly!

Those proselytes had no mediator. None was needed. They were grafted into a pre-existing group relationship with God.

People who might try to insist that Moses was their mediator, are flogging a dead horse (as it were). Moses’ job as a mediator ended when Israel accepted the terms of the Law covenant. His role transformed into advocate. Besides, by the time most proselytes were being grafted in, Moses had been long dead.

In the same way, believers in the Gospel age are grafted into a pre-existing group relationship with God.

In the remainder of Post 46, StvAce did an admirable job of summarising God’s plan of redemption, ending with:

“Thus, it does seem apparent that Christians today are not under a mediator - having an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ.”

Therefore, people who might try to say that because the type involved the Law Covenant, the anti-type must involve the New Covenant, are stretching things and clutching at straws. That is because, if the grafting in requires no mediator, the grafting in cannot be related to the New Covenant (because entrance into the New Covenant is via its mediator - Jesus).

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In retrospect:
- The key to the Church-New-Covenant question was the grafting in, in Romans 11;
- What needed clarification was whether or not those grafted in needed a mediator prior to their grafting;
- There are many types (models, pictures) in the Old Testament specifically placed there to clarify doctrinal issues arising from New Testament documents and Old Testament references associated with them;
- We looked to see if a type could be identified corresponding to the grafting in;
- We found one;
- We looked at it carefully;
- It clarified the Church-New-Covenant question beyond doubt.

It took some non-standard thinking and some different question asking to do so, most definitely.

But looking back, wasn’t each step rather simple and obvious?

Have our minds now been attuned to apply this type of non-standard approach (different perspectives and/or penetrating questions) in the future?

If so, we can sweep away the muddled thinking and identify with accuracy where truth lies (lies, as in rests or exists).

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Should we perhaps look at another perplexing doctrinal disagreement? (Just for fun.)

If so, somebody could start a new thread.
The High Calling - First of all you Gunga Din. Afterwards you gungadout.
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10-15-2017, 08:04 PM,
#30
RE: Muddled Thinking and The Problems It Causes
Just some quick clarification regarding a couple of statements made in Posts 42 and 46.

From Post 42:
Quote:However, it should be pointed out that a 'remnant' was found in Israel, 'according to the election of grace'. So, in Romans, we appear to have natural Israel - the nation as a whole who were cast off due to lack of faith and adherence to the Law (failing to recognise and acknowledge the Messiah - the Law, as a schoolmaster, leading the Jews to Christ (a remnant only). A remnant from Israel who exercised faith in Messiah, saved by Grace. The Gentiles (Gentile Christians) grafted into the Olive tree, in place of the lopped of branches. And mention of salvation possibly for the whole world when they, natural Israel, are 'received' back to God.

The remnant, and Gentile Christians, who exercised faith, grafted in belong to the same group, - however, the natural Israelite branches of the remnant actually inheriting a spiritual reward with the Gentile Christians.

The natural branches blinded due to adherence to the Law of Moses will, with the world in general, be placed under a New Covenant which will lead them to life.

From Post 46:
Quote:Come Messiah, and a new way was opened up - the promise seed appeared, and it was possible for the Greek to be grafted into the Abrahamic promise - believing Jews also able to now be recognised as adopted Sons through faith (the spiritual seed, inheriting spiritual blessings and rewards.

Still, the rest of natural Israel remain blinded, labouring under the Old Law Covenant. This situation will persist until such a time as the full number of the gentiles has entered into the Covenant of Grace - through faith - receiving the adoption by Spirit as Sons of God. The world in general also remain separated from God.

There appears to be a thought in both of the above excerpts, that the remnant of Jews that received the Gospel in the first instance were the only Jews to be included in the Church – i.e. that Jews could not be grafted back in later on if they believed.

In case that is the thought offered, let the following be pointed out.

Romans 11:17-24:
Quote:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and became a sharer of the root and the fatness of the olive tree with them,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, [it is] not you [that] bears the root, but the root bears you.
19 You will say then, The branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.
20 Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not [be] high-minded, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, [fear] lest He also may not spare you either!
22 Behold then [the] kindness, and [the] severity of God; on those having fallen, severity; but on you, kindness, if you continue in the kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the natural wild olive [tree], and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive [tree]; how much more these [being] according to nature will be grafted into [their] own olive-tree?

1 Corinthians 1:22-24:
Quote:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

There even appears to be a pre-existing type (model, picture) of that re-grafting in, somewhere.

Can anyone identify where?
The High Calling - First of all you Gunga Din. Afterwards you gungadout.
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